What became of David Hudson

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What became of David Hudson

Postby cat beaty » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:33 am

Dear DocPtah,

I have joined here for discussion and information purposes. I would really like to know what ever happened to David Hudson. Is there any information on him anywhere? Does the Science of the Spirit Foundation still exist? Any assistance you could relay would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Welcome back to the Halexandria Foundation Forums!

Postby Dumuzi » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:55 am

Hi Cat Beaty-and welcome to the fray. While you wait for the Doc, I thought that I would offer some reading material. Here is a URL for some Hudson lectures: http://www.asc-alchemy.com/hudson.html.

It is my understanding that Hudson's facilities were mysteriously blown up. I can not collaborate it-but I'd be really interested to hear the details. I have an aunt that's being treated for cancer and I wanted to find an "alternative treatment". David's ORME seems to have some proven results and I'm searching for a "verifiable" physician that might offer an ORME treatment. I've only found quacks so far. If you stumble across anything in your search, I'd greatly appreciate you posting that information.

Anu be with you!

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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby Sol » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:32 am

Hi folks,

This is a very intersting question that has been on my own mind for a long time, as I'm sure it's been on every other "Ormus" researcher's mind as well. Without doubt it deserves a full accounting, so I moved it here into a separate thread where I hope we'll be able to learn something.

I've already interrrogated Dan about this some time ago (and of course ve HAF vays of making you talk... 8) ) - but I won't spoil his chance of fully describing it to everyone here again. :) How about it compadre, the World wants to find out what happened to David Hudson, and perhaps the time has come to try and figure it out. Tell us what you know.

One place to start looking would be with the man who I understand was David's friend and associate at one time - Barry Carter, whose several very intersting articles about ORMUS I had a chance to quote in my essay on Ormus, and who also gets a notable mention in Dan's Halexandria page on Ormus. I've written to Barry now and asked him to join our present discussion, to hopefully tell us something about this.

It could well be that Hudson wishes to continue his mysterious disappearance from the public eye, for private and personal reasons. This would be far from the first time that a man whose discoveries shook the world would retire to spend the rest of his days in comfortable obscurity and far from the Paparazzi. But we are now at the brink of a Paradigm Shift, and at this time perhaps things will change in that regard, so that all that was formerly concealed will now be revealed. Or at least later. :D

Hudson has reportedly been ingesting his own ORME's from early on, which would be going on over two decades now. With those substances possessing the qualities they reputedly have - one really wonders what it has done to him personally. Of course one can never judge from just one example - but it's a place to start. David Hudson was the Great Pioneer in this field, and his story will likely become the stuff of Legend for future generations. We may as well start putting the legend together. :)

As for the specific issue of the "alternative treatment" - there is a huge variety of products from sites like "Life Enthusiast" or Zero Point Technologies. But I doubt you can find a "verifiable" doctor who'll tell you much in support of ORME-based treatments, there simply hadn't been enough mainstream research done on them. That's an altogether different discussion though, which it would also be good to start and you are welcome to do so - while here I suggest we focus on Hudson personally.

My best, and I do hope we discover more about this.
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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby sumro » Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:03 pm

Dear Friends,

David Hudson lives in Laveen Arizona.

I have heard that Hudson is no longer working with or promoting the ORMUS materials. The reason given was for personal reasons.

Hudson wanted to fund his ORMUS production and research without going through conventional channels because he found out fairly quickly how resistant existing structures were to the kind of changes that ORMUS promised. He decided to go for small investors using a series of lectures across the United States. This could have worked but, in order to save money, he built his production facility in an area which was inappropriate for a chemical plant. When he had an acid spill many people had to be evacuated and some people were injured by the fumes from the acid. You can read more about this at:

http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/faq.htm#3

David Hudson made a huge contribution to people's knowledge about what we call ORMUS but he is not longer working in this area.

I am sure his motives and intentions were respectable but he tried to cut corners on the implementation.

David Hudson never took any of the ORMUS materials for any length of time. He also was not exactly truthful about the effects that his material had on the gentleman who took it during the fast and for a couple years afterward. Hudson said that this gentleman quit taking it before the time of the "Egyptian rite of passage" time was over and the gentleman himself said that he did not quit taking it.

David Hudson probably did not do any testing of the white powder of gold on live subjects. Virtually all of the biological effects that he reported were on the naturally occurring mix of ORMUS elements from his mine. These elements were extracted from rock, concentrated and "annealed" to the white powder form at first, till he realized that the white powder of gold and iridium would not dissolve in stomach acid.

At that point he started promoting the "chloride form" of the ORMUS element mix. You can see an image of this ORMUS product at:

http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/redbrown.jpg

Most of the reported benefits were based on this product.

I have used this product and I am sure that most of the other products suppliers listed on the ORMUS Sources page have products which are comparable if not superior.

David Hudson did not make the product that he provided. It was made by various other chemists. These other chemists made a small amount of the white powder of gold which the "original ORME consumer" tried. You can read about his experiences with this at:

http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/int ... rintrv.htm

It is generally believed that ORMUS gold is less effective for healing than ORMUS rhodium and iridium.

When using an ORMUS product it is not always beneficial to use the most powerful available. Part of the healing process involves something called the "healing crisis". This is often an unpleasant condition wherein many of the symptoms of a past illness will re-manifest for a period of time. Sometimes these symptoms might be more unpleasant than the original illness because they are concentrated in a short period of time. You can find some helpful methods to mitigate the severity of some of the healing crisis effects at:

http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/faq.htm#6.1

To avoid the harshest of the healing crisis effects, I believe that it is generally best to use a combination of moderate dosages of existing products in combination with liver cleansing and nutritional support.

As an example, while it may be good to drink a gallon of water per day, drinking six gallons of water per day would not be good at all. You would probably drown.

If you wish to get the "real thing" for spiritual advancement you might want to consider the problems that this can cause as described at:

http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/faq.htm#1.5

There are not many people who have had the opportunity to try the fully "annealed" and "charged" white powder of gold made according to Hudson's patent method. One of these people was the "original ORME consumer" who described the effects of the "charged" gold thus:

"The emotional shock of it would be enough to kill most people. Look, even if you took someone 3/4 brain-dead and started pumping it down them, in a certain amount of time you would probably start to effect them on an emotional level.

In concentrated forms, I don't think it's for everyone. I don't think many people, in terms of percentages of the population are going to be compelled to deal with this in the way someone who has spent years working on a spiritual path would be.

This material is real, but if someone expects to eat it and suddenly fly through the chimney: they're in for a real surprise.

It changed everything in a way that hasn't made my life very nice. If you were to talk with some people, they would say it's made me impossible to be around...there's no way in the world to lie. It's not fun. Most people are not going to like it. It's not light-hearted. It's not easy. Unless you have someone that you can deal with that has a point of reference for it, you're going to be very alone. These materials and how they've been dealt with historically have a rich, beautiful tradition built around them. Only now do I understand why."

I know this gentleman and I can say categorically that going through the 40 day fast while eating Hudson's materials and continuing with their ingestion for another couple of years did not allow him to "ascend" or anything like it.

This gentleman's experiences are not unique.

I have a friend who made the "charged" white powder of gold using Hudson's process. First I will give you some background about this gentleman. He is a very mature and spiritually aware person. He is also a respected scientist in his field. He has always been kind and respectful in all of the interactions I have had with him.

I first got acquainted with him in mid 1999 and have worked with him in person.

In the year 2000 he spent several months duplicating Hudson's process and getting the resulting m-gold product annealed. When he had the annealed white powder of gold he tasted about six micrograms of it and within a few hours was almost totally incapacitated.

Judging from his experiences after ingesting a few micrograms of this powder I would bet that its widespread availability would be sufficient to shut down ORMUS for the next few centuries. I doubt that any sane person would produce the fully charged white powder of gold for anyone else.

After ingesting the ORMUS gold one time he was unable to live normally for over a year because he would manifest everything he would think of. Soon after ingesting it his behavior got so strange that his wife told him that she was going to take him to the hospital but he was able to convince her that they would not know what to do to treat complications arising from the ingestion of white powder of gold.

He said that his mind would call up anything that he thought of. He could generally control this during the day but it became a real problem at night. If he thought of having an accident while driving a car would show up out of the blue and almost hit him. He had to learn to keep from thinking of what he did not want in order to avoid manifesting it. This rapid manifestation of his fears became so intrusive that he had to spend every waking minute with his mind on things that took all of his attention. He avoided contact with people and performed mathematical calculations in order to keep his thoughts from going astray. In order to sleep he took sleeping pills to keep from thinking.

This condition persisted with the same intensity for about six months and with less intensity for another six months. He said he realized that ALL of his beliefs were only beliefs and none of them were true in any fundamental way. He said that our beliefs are the foundations of physical reality and that without them things can get very shaky. This happened several years ago but every time I talk with him about it he is noticeably upset as the memories are very disturbing to him still.

(The m-gold also did not reverse any effects of aging that I could see. When I talked with him after his experience he still looked pretty much the same as he looked before it.)

While I don't think that this experience did this gentleman any profound karmic harm I also don't think that it brought him much closer to unexcelled complete awakening either. He is finally able to work with others on a normal basis and he is finally able to talk a bit about his experience.

If this sort of thing happened to lots of people it might attract the kind of attention the ORMUS movement does not need right now. Anyone who would make this for someone else or who would help someone else to make this would be legally liable for the harm that he or she caused and would probably be sued by the survivors of the person who ingested the substance.

Many people who wish to take the "real thing" have said that they wish to do so in order to transcend the physical world. In other words they would be doing it to escape what they don't like. This kind of attention to what he did not want is exactly the thing that brought about the manifestation of those very things for my friend.
--

With kindest regards,

Barry Carter
<bcarter@igc.org>
2319 Balm
Baker City, Oregon 97814
Phone: 541-523-3357
Web Pages:
ORMUS - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/index.htm
Forest - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/bmnfa/index.htm
Donate - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/donate.htm

"What you think upon grows. Whatever you allow to occupy your mind you magnify in your life. Whether the subject of your thought be good or bad, the law works and the condition grows. Any subject that you keep out of your mind tends to diminish in your life, because what you do not use atrophies. The more you think of grievances, the more such trials you will continue to receive; the more you think of the good fortune you have had, the more good fortune will come to you."
--Emmet Fox from Make Your Life Worthwhile, 1942
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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby Sol » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:38 pm

Hello Barry and very nice to meet you!

My heartfelt thanks for joining us here and sharing this very interesting and pertinent information. This really is one amazing medium, enabling one to get replies to nagging questions with such stunning speed. I have meanwhile checked out your own vast Forum Community, and was glad to see that it rivals for size and activity pretty much most of what I've seen on the Yahoogroups Alternative Circuit before. It's nice to know that the "Ormus Elements" have managed to draw such a large and interested crowd, and I'll be going through the articles on your site to see what you guys have managed to discover about this so far.

You must be pretty busy running that huge Network, so more kudos for taking the time to share this with us. Well, from what you say it's pretty obvious that these little-understood new-old substances can be dangerous on several levels, and are not to be tampered with lightly or used without discretion, perhaps best not used at all.

I would guess that the commercial variety offered on the websites I linked above must be some kind of highly watered-down versions of Hudson's original concoctions, otherwise the effects such as you describe on your scientist friend and "the original ORME consumer" would've probably long ago put these substances outside the law (if people who used them and freaked out started alarming their families and arriving in the psycho wards.)

We seem to be dealing here with a new and revolutionary discovery (or "re-discovery", if we accept Gardner's Star-Fire Theory) - and history is replete with example of scientists who got hurt or killed when they discovered such things, like the first guys who played with catching lightning, or the people who made the first U-235. By the sound of it, Hudson himself also became a type of an "early casualty" of this new substance, perhaps somehow burned by what he saw "in there."

I urge everyone who happens to read these messages to heed the warnings at the end of Barry's posting about making or ingesting these elements. Basically, do not try this at home without adult supervision. And if you do - make sure you're away from civilization for at least a year, or your behavior is liable to get you arrested. :)

I love what you say at the end of your message:

Barry Carter wrote:Many people who wish to take the "real thing" have said that they wish to do so in order to transcend the physical world. In other words they would be doing it to escape what they don't like.

This is a most poignant statement, that applies not just to ORME's but to injesting any "substance" which has the power to change your reality. If you take such a substance because you feel the present sucks and you seek a better world, namely for reasons of Escapism - then you're liable to get badly hurt.

In fact this applies to engaging in any activity that has the power to "change you inside", like any "spiritual quest". One should go on Spiritual Quests because he loves the present world, not because he doesn't.

The story of your friend being able to manifest his thoughts, is a very educational one that I'll be thinking about a lot. It fits directly into "Shamanic Lore" of course and would be seen as great Siddhis for an Initiate in those Mysteries - but apparently when acquired directly by a Western man in his position, this ability can do much more harm than good, just as the Lore also says.

Thanks again man, and I hope you send another occasional gem our way when you're not too busy. :)
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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby DocPtah » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:26 am

Questions about David Hudson have been one of the more consistent inquiries posed to Halexandria during its roughly five year history. Inevitably, this has also brought up the pervasive issue of: "here can I go to buy ascension?"

For years now, my stock answer has been that if you have to ask where to acquire the ORME, ORMUS, Starfire, or authentic Barney the Dinosaur stuffed animal... then you are probably not ready to handle such substances. In all of the traditions, an inevitable point is that one does not approach the deepest of mysteries -- from the ORME to the Ark of the Covenant -- unless one is first in a "righteous" or appropriate state for receiving the answers (including answers you did not even ask about, or for that matter answers that you would really have preferred not to know about).

In essence, before one reaches for the Holy Grail, the ORMUS, or the telephone number of some drop dead gorgeous babe... one needs to involve one's self in the journey, prepare one's self accordingly, learn to control one's mind (hopefully eliminating stray thoughts which result in WWIII), and possibly have already taken a good healthy dose of Viagra.

BTW, when it comes to inadvertently manifesting reality, read and watch the movie, The Lathe of Heaven.

In any event, Barry Carter's very informative and complete discussion above should be read and studied, if one is indeed interested in the Great Expectations associated with the ORME, et al. Barry Carter is, in fact, one of those people who have done their homework.

Just keep in mind that Alchemists were never really known for being the most sociable creatures on the circuit.

Meanwhile, I will be posting in large letters on all of the relevant pages a link to this thread on the Forums. All of the above, I suspect, is highly relevant and needs to be readily available.

Finally, I'm hoping to join the Continuum (of Star Trek, The Next Generation fame) and become as powerful, funny, and entertaining as "Q". Anyone know where I can sign up for that?

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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby Acolyte » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:23 am

personally, having read Barry's message a couple of times. I'd be willing to try - I have no expectations about escaping reality, about ascension or even a short cut to advancement, but I would like to explore who I am & find a way into & through the internal dialogue I find hard to penetrate.

Some time ago I thought Ormus might be a path (*grins* SO tempted to say a ptah...) but given my location & lack of availability i guess I need to find other tracks into my reality. le sigh!
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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby greenman » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:47 pm

Hello

I'm new here. Instead of ingesting the substance; has anyone ever considered using it electronic devices?
I know this would strike everyone as strange. It could also be used in various other devices. Unbelievable technological advancments could very well be possible on a scale that no one has ever seen before. This woudl naturally require a whole new way of thinking when it come sto designing the different devices. I'm not talking about TV, video games, and silly things like that. I'm talking about things that could take us to a whole new level. I have some theories; but would rather keep my mouth shut on most of them. You never know who might be reading this. I don't want to wake up on some underground military base tomorrow morning.
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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby DocPtah » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:54 pm

There is an old story about the Russians during the Cold War funding a lot of psychic research, using subjects to develop ESP abilities and the like... with the intention that they would be incredibly good spies. The story goes on to say that these developed personalities decided they didn't want to be spies and used their new talents to do pretty much whatever they wanted.

Accordingly, if you have the electronics to go to a whole new level... maybe the government will be UNABLE to contain you! <grin>

Plus which, besides electronics, orme, ormus, and so forth... is there any reason that the mind... once it truly believes it can do it... do all the things the other "tools" were meant to make easier?
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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby haze1 » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:16 pm

Re: Welcome back to the Halexandria Foundation Forums!

maybe this can help

http://www.ambayagold.com/cmd.php?af=887178

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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby DocPtah » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:28 pm

Hazel...

While we might appreciate your providing some direction, Halexandria does not in any way endorse or recommend products or services. The link you suggested is simply one other entrepreneur trying to sell a product... and even in the first paragraph of the website is making unsubstantiated and questionable statements. Accordingly, it behooves me to suggest that you and others follow the general guidelines of not linking to sites whose primary goal is the sale of some product or service... without a least a disclaimer that neither you nor Halexandria is in any way endorsing the product or service. Your cooperation is much appreciated.
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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby Angel » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:55 am

Hello everyone,

I recently read some information on this subject that seems to disagree a bit, with some of the posters and thought it would be fair to share it here as well. The article is entitled exactly like this one however, gives a bit more plausible set of happenstance in my minds eye for the whereabouts and what happened question. This source also includes the final newsletter David Hudson put out titled "Enough is Enough". He had a heart attack and has been recovering quietly after loosing millions of his own money in what he would call sabotage and more. http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/faq.htm#3

I am certainly no one to judge any others opinions on a subject except when they are submitted as facts. In this case I see one poster accuse David of deliberately misleading the public and outright lies and I respectively would like to ask to see the source of that information, so that we can be safe to draw the same conclusions, based on documented fact and not opinion. David Hudson was indeed the pioneer at least of this modern day discovery and the implications of such a discovery/rediscovery demand that we history writers get our facts straight. To bring dishonor to "the pioneer" is both hurtful to the discovery and to those that support it. I can't fathom a man who spends millions of his own fortune for the research and development of a product, would be so stupid as to jeopardize its validity by purposeful and willful deceit. Any person willing to put their own money behind a product would have no need to fabricate anything, as they must believe the product can speak for itself.

Furthermore, we are talking about something that has the potential to, among other things, heal the dead and dying, and retard the aging process. Do we really expect this would be "allowed" by the elite who control this planet and its inhabitants? People have been murdered for far, far less then this and every single day. Quite frankly the fact that we know about it is dangerous to our own health, let alone the pioneer. You can also expect misinformation to be generated to discourage. I will tell you one thing for sure, the source I first learned about Ormus from was promptly removed from the internet and I have yet to find it again. That is not easy to do once published on the internet. People in high places would stop at nothing to insure control of how and if, including the when and by whom, this discovery was made known. I am not saying the comments posted earlier are untrue, but I am saying, before we speak opinion as fact, or even present what appears to be fact as fact, that we owe it to the pioneer and to the miracle discovery, to at the very least be extremely thorough in our research and resolve to work all sides and examine all available information, collectively working to expose and ultimately writing its history in the clearest of truths based on sound facts in this matter.

I for one would hope we history writers, witnessing the evolution or demise of something as powerful as this one is, can and will be happy to work together as a team and responsibly present this product and its pioneer, with careful, almost paranoid caution and tried and true integrity based investigation. This is an honor and a duty, not to be taken lightly and without considerable thought in regard to the potential, both positive and negative, this product could have to many areas of our lives and to the very human race. Any history writing or making done in written form, especially with this miracle, demands nothing less in my opinion. I look forward to seeing the source and with working with all of you. We can be sure to learn a lot and that alone is a plus. I feel both honored and unworthy to be part of something so important and so sacred. Lets be smart about each and every syllable and step taken, lest we fail to bring honor to all that it encompasses.

Thank you for your time and the opportunity to speak freely.
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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby DocPtah » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:14 pm

Angel,

I kept waiting for someone to respond to your statement and produce some clear evidence to support their views of whether or not David Hudson was the good or bad guy. But nothing came of what I considered to be your very valid request.

Recently, I received an e-mail from someone who pointed out that my championing one particular author was, apparently, because I didn't know his history and tendency to fabricate references. When I replied to the e-mail and asked for specifics, I failed to receive a response. I did find out later that an organization had begun a serious slander and libel campaign against the author, fully intending to ruin his reputation. That's pretty much the crux of the problem. It's just so easy to make all sorts of telling arguments, when one doesn't have to produce evidence... and worse yet to do so without really revealing one's self or giving one's actual name.

Meanwhile, I'm struck with the concept that things happen in their season. Hudson, Orme and Ormus may be just a bit too far ahead in their timing. We as a people... even individually... may not be ready for Ormus, Starfire, or whatever.

This brings up a totally different thread, that I wanted to toss into the mix. It's about The Next Hundred Years... and how we may have to wait for the right moment in the current cycle (i.e., roughly 1981 to 2031) to gain full access to the possibilities. Hudson may or may not live to see it... but he would likely still be remembered for what he did manage to accomplish.
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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby Angel » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:05 pm

DocPtah,

I hope so, I really do. Thank you for your reply, and I wonder why no one replied? It could mean many things, but I do think that what you mentioned in your own personal experience could have been at play in this particular case also. It seems to me very logical to expect a huge disinformation attack when someone strikes a chord with a reality that is closely guarded or protected from being known by the mere public. hehe. I mean honestly, when it comes down to it, the powers that control us all would simply not be happy about the ormus truth becoming common knowledge, at least not until they have secured every ounce of gold they can find on the planet first. Right?

Secondly, and most sadly really I have to agree with your thoughts on being ready for it too. I shudder to think what would happen if some people I know personally got their hands on this stuff. I mean that with no disrespect what so ever it is simply a fact.

It may be of interest too that I have read some pretty serious accounts where it might be not such a good thing to become involved with either. Quite a few of the earliest users have a difficult time living in 3rd dimensional reality now and life as they once knew it to be has never returned. In other words, the truths or perception of life outside the realms of which you live, may need to remain where they are. Simply because you live in this world!! You are here for the experiences of this life and its opportunity. Learn and experience what it has and when it is time to go onto the next... trust that you can be sure you will get there. Then.

The key is to reflect on every experience you have and draw from it the love and the truth of each one. Even going to the grocery store can teach you something if you simply choose or remember to reflect on that experience. This is the key.. it is why we are here and I say.. live it, experience all the desires of your heart. As long as you do not infringe upon the free will of another, you can not go wrong. But live in the realm that you are in .. we have eternity to experience those others. No need to rush .. :wink:
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Re: What became of David Hudson

Postby Dorman1 » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:57 pm

I've read some of the articles written by DocPtah in his Library, and I really cannot comprehend it enough to want to go further with it. Then, on another thread on this forum, there is this same topic, and one of the links given led me into a couple of days reading. I think it all began when he was trying to make a plot of land fertile, I think. It is already getting foggy.

It led to samples he left out in the sun to dry, suddenly exploding, like an old fashioned camera's flash powder. It was difficult following all of the text, but it was also extremely interesting in many parts. I think this is where I saw a position taken that when pressure/temperature is removed from a system, a vacuum energy exists. Not explained as simply the vacuum existing within the system, but postulation which seemed to me a description of a sort of connect to the vacuum energy within space of the universe. That lost me as I saw no example of application.

This white powder is monatomic gold? it possesses the property of making a person an absolute in regard to external magnetic fields of force? or to say it differently, separate or unaffected by magnetic fields? I suppose a benefit of this would require esoteric knowledge in regard to individual magnetic center. Now I'm losing my ability to grasp it comprehensively if I continue. But, if we look at it in a Gurjieffian manner, we would ascertain that within ourselves should be the center, and it would have to be an essence we can attain a connect. I can only consider consciousness of mind, which desires expansion and awareness of fundamental human principles of the human within Nature, and with Nature. Knowing I am an aggragate containing as Gurjieff said, "many I's" which are probably foundational for the concept of the human possessing at some point within, chaos. Without distractive, or influences of external magnetic fields, order and balance emerges from chaos. The result being coalesced fields of force for the man punching through the Astral Light on into the Akasha.

Has the thought of utilizing organic silica along with monatomic gold been considered by anyone?
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